User talk:EchoesOfTheTower
Welcome Hi, welcome to ! Thanks for your edit to the User:EchoesOfTheTower page. We welcome all contributions to the Wiki but please be aware of the following simple rules: 1) This wiki is meant for the Game of Thrones TV series and the TV alone. Spoilers from the novels are not permitted at all. Discussion of earlier events in the novels and the use of non-spoiler background material from the novel as regards specific events, characters and places in the TV series are allowed (in the 'In the books' section of an article) but future events cannot be discussed. 2) This wiki has specific permission from HBO's marketing department to use a reasonable number of promotional images and screencaps from the series to illustrate articles. The use of other copyrighted images is not permitted without either specific permission or fair use attributions. For example, this Wiki cannot use Amoka's portrait images or Ted Nasmith's castle pictures as these are copyrighted. In addition, the Wiki is focused on the TV series and TV series alone. Images from other media should be avoided without a very good cause. Enjoy your editing and please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:12, July 26, 2015 (UTC) Where to start Hi, nice to meet you. any advice for a newcomer?EchoesOfTheTower (talk) 14:29, July 26, 2015 (UTC) Start by reading through the episode guide pages, they're sort of the backbone...everything else spirals out from there.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:12, July 26, 2015 (UTC) Thank you my friend :) i'll be sure to do that 22:54, July 26, 2015 (UTC) It is considered odd wiki-etiquette to join up and immediately start posting on the discussion pages of multiple Administrators...just looking to "chat" in general. If you have a specific question, we will answer it at length. Rather than shooting Admins a message every time you have a question, write the question on the relevant Talk page and we'll notice it. Or, if we don't notice it after a time, THEN you contact us. For example if you want to add to the locked "Theon Greyjoy" page, write about that on the Talk page of "Theon Greyjoy" first. In answer to your question, we lock editing on pages that get frequently vandalized or have the potential to be vandalized due to story spoilers. People often join up on here because they want to add information to a page they were reading which they felt could be expanded, i.e. the "Theon Greyjoy" page. From there they branch out into specific episodes, or "The Iron Islands", "House Greyjoy", etc. It's kind of weird to just pop in and ask "what should I be working on?" ...er....the things that you're interested in or good at. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:03, July 28, 2015 (UTC) Bronn The Bronn article is now unlocked.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:21, June 28, 2016 (UTC) Thank you, friend. I have done all the updates so if you want to reunlock this page feel free. Thank you again. --EchoesOfTheTower (talk) 20:28, June 28, 2016 (UTC) :There is no contention point about the article and no edit war so there is no need to keep it locked.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:37, June 28, 2016 (UTC) Perfect then! --EchoesOfTheTower (talk) 20:41, June 28, 2016 (UTC) Updates Sorry, I know this isn't my business but I came across this and I was wondering what it was about? Could someone please explain? Thank you --EchoesOfTheTower (talk) 22:13, June 28, 2016 (UTC) Please stop obsequiously butting into other conversations, and writing direct Talk page messages to Admins to try to flag down attention for common edits you've made to many articles. Yes, please ask us if you have a specific problem. Otherwise, ask on the Talk page for the article in question - we'll usually see it in the "Recent Changes" feed.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:25, June 29, 2016 (UTC) My deepest apologies Dragon. I was just trying to learn more about what you were doing so I could try and help more, and I just wanted your opinion on some changes. Please excuse me if you didn't appreciate my behavior. It won't happen again. Best, --EchoesOfTheTower (talk) 07:25, June 29, 2016 (UTC) page names The only one I don't really agree with is Hodor and Wylis. The fans know him as Hodor... I mean that /was/ his name for most his life. 19:14, July 2, 2016 (UTC) I know, I see your point but that was his ORIGINAL and ACCURATE name. Just like Jon Snow,'if his name indeed is Jaeahaerys Targaryen I'd expect the page to be renamed for the sake of accuracy and professionalism.'please consider at least.--EchoesOfTheTower (talk) 20:28, July 2, 2016 (UTC) Jon hasn't been renamed yet, and that's why those are exceptional cases of assumed identities.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:57, July 3, 2016 (UTC) Yes of course, I realize that: I meant when his name is actually confirmed on screen. With regards --EchoesOfTheTower (talk) 09:42, July 3, 2016 (UTC) No. That isn't what "accuracy and professionalism" mean in this context. Even Wikipedia.org has a page titled "Bill Clinton", and not "William Clinton" or his entire accurately full name "William Jefferson Clinton". Yes, we may have to have some sort of discussion later on if Jon's full Targaryen names comes out. But to leap to accusing us of non-professionalism at this point is absurd and insulting.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:35, July 6, 2016 (UTC) I didn't accuse anyone, I just spoke for the possible future. I do see your point however. My apologies. -- 01:37, July 6, 2016 (UTC) Sigil There you go. Don't be afraid to say if you want any changes made to it. - 15:36, July 3, 2016 (UTC) What the hell, this is SICK. Even better than i thought ! god man THANK YOU so much! How can i set it as my signature ??? Thanks again im in awe --EchoesOfTheTower (talk) 15:58, July 3, 2016 (UTC) :You're more than welcome, it was honestly quite fun! Just go to your preferences and scroll down to the box that says "signature" - copy/paste the following but enclosed with 50px|link=User:EchoesOfTheTower :You may need to play around with the size a little bit. Also make sure to tick the box that says "use wiki-text in my signiture". Let me know if you need anything else. :-) 18:01, July 3, 2016 (UTC) Hi, what size do u recommend? Im like a noob in these things haha im just a writing pro but with images im tragic.--[[User:EchoesOfTheTower|EchoesOfTheTower (talk) 21:47, July 3, 2016 (UTC) Is it supposed to show up as a whole block? TEST 22:21, July 3, 2016 (UTC) :It seems you've sorted it now. Looks good. - 19:22, July 4, 2016 (UTC) :Thanks so much. Love it! 22:40, July 4, 2016 (UTC) ::I made a square version as well, if you wanted it for your avatar? - 06:19, July 5, 2016 (UTC) Omg thanks so much! Too kind. I'd love to have it as an avatar too!-- 18:31, July 5, 2016 (UTC) Re: Gregor Picture I see someone has already beaten me to it, for the Season 4 picture is back up. KillRoy231 (talk) 23:05, July 4, 2016 (UTC) Yeah haah that was me - I found it while messing about the wiki files! Thank you anyway. -- 18:32, July 5, 2016 (UTC) Brandon Stark (Son of Eddard) You're thinking about this wayyyyy too hard. Daenery's is known mainly as Daenery's on the show... it's easier for people to say Dany a lot of times, I know for me, especially when writing, as I forget how to spell her name. This also goes back to the issue of Hodor and Wylis... on the show he is known mainly as Hodor. Just like Brandon is mainly known as Bran. I don't know how else to make you understand. This is just an online encyclopedia, we want the user to find the pages easily and get the info they need. They know Bran as Bran. Think about it this way.. if he were at a comic book convention... how would be labeled? It wouldn't be as Brandon Stark Son of Eddard. Know what I mean? Cause the people know him as Bran. 20:05, July 5, 2016 (UTC) I'm not thinking "way to hard". I'm thinking properly, like a good encyclopedia would work. If people don't know that his name is Brandon and that's the way they should look for him they are clearly morons. By the same logic let's go ahead and rename Eddison Tollett's page "Ed Tollett" and Eddard's page "Ned Stark" and Petyr Baelish's page "Littlefinger" as they are virtually never called by their full name on screen. Let's just rename every page based on what people are known as, removing every hint of professionality on this wiki. You're an admin - you of all people should support keeping the wiki uniform and true. I am Bewildered.-- 20:30, July 5, 2016 (UTC) :This issue was settled years past and we chose to follow the example of A Wiki of Ice and Fire, one of our models, and to simplify some articles for the sake of disambiguation. There are several Brandon Starks, unlike Eddison Tollett or Eddard Stark. We chose to keep it in "Bran Stark". In Hodor's case, basically his name was changed.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:47, July 5, 2016 (UTC) Aargh, this is so damn stupid! How the hell is this wiki set up? And that Hodor thing too! His goddamn name is WYLIS! WYLIS! Just have it your way. I refuse to waste my time in trying to improve a place and make it consistent and professional when its own admins don't give one.-- 21:04, July 5, 2016 (UTC) ::Again, I think you're getting a little too frustrated here. This is how we run the GoT Wiki and have for many many years. I apologize you don't agree, but we get 1 + million hits a day, so apparently we're doing something right. I'll remind you one more time, if Kristian Naim was at a comic book convention, and his picture was up on the website, it wouldn't say "Wylis" beneath it, but Hodor. His name is Hodor, he was born Wylis.. his name changed as a child to Hodor. We aren't strict here, we are trying to go by what the fan's know. Apparently you don't understand that, so please, this matter is closed. 21:25, July 5, 2016 (UTC) Well of course it's gonna say Hodor, it's INFORMAL. This wiki is FORMAL. I forgot changing someone's name to its proper form will drop your million views. Not like I asked a shakeup of the whole wiki. It's just TWO articles. Do whatever you want. I'm done with a place which doesn't take stuff seriously and pisses on professionality and accuracy. Might as well start my own GoT wiki, and do everything right. It'll be lengthy, but worth it. -- 21:47, July 5, 2016 (UTC) ::There is a fine line you walk when running a huge Wiki like this. While we are formal, we are also informal. BUT, the main thing I want us to be is user friendly. If you start your own Wiki I wish you the best of luck and I'm sorry you don't see eye to eye on this stuff like we do. Good day. 22:02, July 5, 2016 (UTC) If you were really sorry you'd take my advice on board, see that I have a clear point and actually try to reason. My name is Harold Rosenberg, EVERYONE, including my family and my UNI PROFESSORS call me Har or Rosen, virtually nobody knows my full name yet I still identify myself as such. Game of Thrones is a complex show, packsd with characters and intertwining storylines which can be difficult to follow: dumb people cannot fully keep track and understand it, for example when a long lost character is reintroduced. If someone isn't clever enough to remember Hodor's name is Wylis or remember Brandon's full name they shouldn't even be on this wiki. I know for a fact that myself, for one, would search for "Wylis" and "Brandon Stark". It's good that you've managed for so long and have success; I am proud of you, honestly. But you should learn to welcome newcomers advice such as this when it is good and for the benefit. But you don't care. You just wana be "user friendly" to the morons who can't accept reality and adapt to change. I bet 90% of those 1 million daily hits are idiots who have to read what happened to comprehend an episode or they have to read who the Blackfish (who you guys listed as Brynden btw) is because they forgot about him after 3 seasons and have no idea who he is.-- 22:59, July 5, 2016 (UTC) :Please do not call our readers idiots or morons. I'm sorry you cannot realize that the masses know him has HODOR! This really must be the end of this argument, or I will have to start thinking about blocking for harassment. 00:14, July 6, 2016 (UTC) If I have an opinion, I can say it - out of respect for you, I will not call them such anymore, but not because anyone forced me. Just because you asked me. However, threatening to block me for harrassment when all I am doing is speaking my mind and giving criticisim aimed at improving the place is an APPALLING abuse of your admin rights. I am not messing up any pages, nor am I insulting, stalking or otherwise harrassing you in any way. This is also what talk pages are for. Discussing, arguing or exchancig ideas. You can't block me for harrassment as I am not harrassing anyone. With that said, I will close the argument as I have sadly come to the conclusion that you people are unable to accept reality, change, and most of all keep this wiki professional, coherent and accurate. I hope you have a nice day and best of luck for the future. I am sorry you cannot see my (correct) point. I shall get on with my editing then. Anything you need I'm happy to help. -- 00:28, July 6, 2016 (UTC) :You did say you were dropping the matter of the naming of the Bran and Hodor articles, yet a few hours later you come back and insist, and keep insisting.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:16, July 6, 2016 (UTC) House words in infoboxes No. House words in infoboxes are never bolded, they haven't been before. Why have you been on an editing binge bolding the House words in article infoboxes?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:40, July 6, 2016 (UTC) I saw many infoboxes with bolded house words, such as House Frey, House Stark, House Lannister, House Tarly, House Bolton etc… then I saw other less important houses unbolded. Since these "big" ones, bound to be visited more frequently were bolded, I assumed the others were forgotten to be bolded so I rectified them basing myself on what I saw on the major pages. -- 01:44, July 6, 2016 (UTC) They were bolded in the text, not the infobox.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:53, July 6, 2016 (UTC) No, also in the infobox - that is precisely why I did it. Honestly. -- 01:55, July 6, 2016 (UTC) On Gonzalo84's talk page another user is also taking up my point for the Ser Gregor pic. take a look. He's got an excellent argument. -- 01:59, July 6, 2016 (UTC) Actually he was suggesting using tabs to show progression across seasons, which is a good idea; no we can't show his face, that's the point, that we have no idea what's going on in there anymore, and it's his most "iconic"/representative look now.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:06, July 6, 2016 (UTC) He suggested that because he understood that using the S4 pic was out of the question for some reason, so he tried to compromise. We did talk about this before together.-- 02:08, July 6, 2016 (UTC) :Weren't you dropping the matter of the profile picture? Or are you just dropping discussions in one talk page just to insist on others. And by the way, just because some other user agrees with with you is not an "excellent argument".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:20, July 6, 2016 (UTC) Fanart You put this on the House Smallwood talk page: Do we have someone who can make a book-canon heraldry for the House? 23:42, July 3, 2016 (UTC) ....Our rule for years on this wiki is that it's based on "The TV continuity", and thus we cannot make recreations of heraldry which hasn't appeared on-screen in any fashion. We'd never make "book canon heraldry".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:03, July 6, 2016 (UTC) Why are you going around every single page racking up my mistakes? We were having a different discussion just a few minutes ago. With regards to this, I apologize - I hadn't quite fully understood that bit back then, I re read the guideline and I got it. I forgot to take that down. I am sorry.-- 02:06, July 6, 2016 (UTC) Fair enough. Well let me explain: You started editing on here during the height of the post-finale editing boom. The fact that I wasn't reviewing your edits in the past week does not mean that I approved of them - simply that I was backlogged on reviewing them. What I'm doing now is catching up, but reading through your Contributions tab, in order: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/EchoesOfTheTower There are numerous problems.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:18, July 6, 2016 (UTC) I do want to be a good contributor on the wiki and make positive progress - please do point out these problems you found so that I may learn from the mistaked, improve and help the wiki without mishaps. I don't want to be a problem, nuisance or hinderance. I just want to help make this wiki better. Even though we got off on the wrong foot, I look forward to working with you - to following you. With your help, I can get better.-- 02:21, July 6, 2016 (UTC) Vacant Administratorship Over on QueenBuffy's Talk page, you wrote in pointing out that Admin SerPatrek has been gone for some months. Then you asked if this meant there was a vacancy for an Admin position, and asked if you could be one. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:QueenBuffy?diff=276944&oldid=276934 This was very presumptuous and insulting, as you are not remotely qualitied. This was immature. You've only been an "active editor" for exactly one week - eight days ago actually, two days after the finale. Yes, going through your contributions tab, you technically "joined" a year ago after the Season 5 finale...by which I mean, you came on here, wrote up a long profile page for yourself, did no significant work, then didn't really return for a year. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/EchoesOfTheTower And indeed, on your userpage since a year ago (even though you didn't update anything since), basically the first thing you added on here was "I want to be an Administrator!" "I hope to climb up the wiki hierarchy and become a knight one day, and if anyone would be nice enough to come forward with some advice on how to achieve this I'd be very interested in listening to you and I'd be very grateful. " http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:EchoesOfTheTower Next, you have been...pervasively obsequious to the Admins for the past week. For example your userpage: "I hope I can be a good asset to this wiki and make valuable contributions, but I know I'll need to listen to and learn from my betters. " People rise through the ranks to become Administrators through consistent contributions and hard work over a long period of time. ...I...think your "plan" was "buddy up with the current Admins who will make me an Admin because I'm a cool guy"....even with practically nothing in the way of "actual work" to show for it. Lately you've just been puttering around making token edits like changing the first line of articles to include titles ("Edmure Tully" to "Lord Edmure Tully"). Moreover, I checked "TheInBetweenersWiki" which you say you were an Admin on; it has less than 80 articles on it. You weren't an Admin of an active large wiki - and to be honest I can't even find evidence you were even at that place. A long time contributor from a different wiki with thousands of edits who recently joined would be a different matter, if we think they're overlapping skillsets or a sign of experience - you don't have those. Third, you've been arguing with everyone you come into contact with by dismissing them as quote "unprofessional" and "morons" for not agreeing with your formatting standard choices. ....AND, whenever you run into even the slightest problem like this, you've been DIRECTLY complaining to the Admins about it; i.e. when ShaneyMike reverted some infobox edits you made - he did it in good faith, and later admitted he was simply confused about what the proper format was. Instead, you flagged down Admins demanding they yell at him, and derided him for already having 3,000 edits but not agreeing with you. "It seems weird that after 3000+ edits he still does not know an infobox format. If he really is that dim perhaps he should not be allowed to edit. " ...this is insulting namecalling. Yes, you later discussed it with him and he agreed with you....that isn't something to be proud of, however, because that's what you COULD and SHOULD have done in the first place, instead of yelling to everyone about it first. Even something as simple as differing infobox formats have turned into causes of grave insult for you. Fourth, the matter of article names: You asked if characters who drop their surname when they join monastic orders like Lancel (Lannister) should use their full name instead - I agreed to this. You jumped to the conclusion that this referred to nicknames as well, even though that was never discussed. Two or three characters, on a case by case basis, might be known by their nicknames, but it is done rarely. By definition these are exceptional cases. Then there are characters with *hidden* names: You called us morons and unprofessional for not changing "Hodor" to "Wylis". Or even "Jon Snow" to something else, even though 1 - we don't know what his real name is yet, 2 - Jon himself doesn't know. "Jon Snow" is the current name he's using. Each of these actually have some validity to them: next season we'll probably have a debate on what to title the Jon Snow article. Even right now, for Hodor, it wouldn't have been wrong to raise the issue...it's the manner in which you raised it. Everyone who disagrees with you is automatically dim, a moron, and unprofessional. Define "unprofessional". I say blind systematic application is unprofessional: even Wikipedia.org titles a page "Bill Clinton" and not "William Clinton" or "William Jefferson Clinton". Hodor at least is so much more commonly known under the name "Hodor" that it would be confusing to call him Wyllis. I've tried to explain this: as a wiki is an educational tool, it is better to use common names than full names which are rarely if ever used. You raised the issue of whether we might as well retitle "Petyr Baelish" to "Littlefinger", as "he's never called Petyr Baelish" -- actually, he's caled Baelish about as often as he's called Littlefinger. Not comparable. You then started insulting the Admins as "unprofessional" simply for disagreeing with you; we didn't absent-mindedly title a page "Bran Stark" - we came to that conclusion after discussion of how to differentiate him from his uncle Brandon Stark - everyone generaly calls him "Bran" to the point that his POV narration chapters in the book are called "Bran" and official TV materials often title his entries "Bran". :"I'm not thinking "way to hard". I'm thinking properly, like a good encyclopedia would work. If people don't know that his name is Brandon and that's the way they should look for him they are clearly morons. By the same logic let's go ahead and rename Eddison Tollett's page "Ed Tollett" and Eddard's page "Ned Stark" and Petyr Baelish's page "Littlefinger" as they are virtually never called by their full name on screen." "Let's just rename every page based on what people are known as, removing every hint of professionality on this wiki. You're an admin - you of all people should support keeping the wiki uniform and true. I am Bewildered.-- '' "''just wana be "user friendly" to the morons who can't accept reality and adapt to change. I bet 90% of those 1 million daily hits are idiots who have to read what happened to comprehend an episode or they have to read who the Blackfish (who you guys listed as Brynden btw) is because they forgot about him after 3 seasons and have no idea who he is.-'' "''If I have an opinion, I can say it - out of respect for you, I will not call them such anymore, but not because anyone forced me. Just because you asked me. '' "''However, threatening to block me for harrassment when all I am doing is speaking my mind and giving criticisim aimed at improving the place is an APPALLING abuse of your admin rights. ...you aren't "speaking your mind", you are pervasively referring to people who merely disagree with you as "morons" and deriding them as "unprofessional". Then when we warned you that you're being very antagonistic and insulting (not just arguing and disagreeing, but petty insults) you lashed back repeatedly that "it is an abuse of Admin rights to tell me not to call people morons!" "With that said, I will close the argument as I have sadly come to the conclusion that you people are unable to accept reality, change, and most of all keep this wiki professional, coherent and accurate. I" But, always with the obsequiousness. Which is odd. :"Got you. Well thank you very much, I do hope he's alright. Anyway, now that I am done with exams and have summer plus a gap year, I will be on here 90% of the day! I look forward to working with you. See you soon! " http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:QueenBuffy?diff=276946&oldid=276945 Which is a baffling contradiction. You showed up on a wiki you've done no work on, desperately wanted to be an Administrator, did little if any significant work for it, immediately jumped to petty insults with other users simply for disagreeing with you, lashed out at and derided the Admins when we told you to stop making petty insults like that and to try to work more smoothly with other contributors....and then, because you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you, continue to follow the Admins around making petty obsequious compliments or comments about "I really want to be part of the team and friends!" Overall, it is not what you disagreed with. Let me stress that. Reasonable disagreements can be had about infobox setup or page titles. It is the manner in which you went about this. You are extremely immature while ignoring many rules of basic etiquette. Bluntly, you haven't contributed anything of significant value to the wiki but rather, in the past week -- during the height of the post-finale editing boom when we really didn't need new problems -- you instead have made yourself a major distraction, picking fights with other users, then not just requesting arbitration but demanding the Admins side with you, then acting surprised when we tell you to behave with some restraint. In summary: *1 - You only functionally started editing here eight days ago, made under 250 edits (many to your user page) yet audaciously requested to be made an Administrator...even as we're already chastising you for poor behavior on the wiki. *2 - You have been pervasively obsequious to the Admins, constantly demanding attention, in a thinly veiled attempt to "work up the wiki hierarchy" through....social networking?, as opposed to hard work and consistent contributions. *3 - You made no real attempt to familiarize yourself with our naming conventions, then acted surprised and insulted when we corrected mistakes you made. *4 - You have been repeatedly making demeaning and petty insults to other contributors. Yes, we argue on wikis all the time, but constructively - not just making a blanket statement that everyone who doesn't agree with you is "dim" and "a moron". It was also really arrogant when asked to stop calling people "morons" to respond by outright defending your usage and saying it was "an appalling abuse of Admin rights" to even give you a warning about such language....which was drastically out of proportion to the seemingly minor disagreements you were getting involved in. *5 - While you touched upon legitimate points about article titles, you then lashed out when we said they sometimes have to use more familiar names ("Bran Stark" instead of "Brandon Stark") even though this is common practice throughout Wikia. You made no real attempt to simply "discuss" the matter but immediately started lashing out at everyone. You COULD have just started a discussion on the Hodor page instead of jumping to calling us "unprofessional morons" for it. You have been pervasively immature, launched needless petty attacks against other users, and berated the Admins for gently warning you not to. You also ended up insulting multiple Admins because you went out of your way to dragging Admins into your arguments, then got surprised when they disagree with you too - this wouldn't have happened if you hadn't been so needy for attention and I hope the irony isn't lost on you. On top of this you've done barely any work while making repeated and presumptuous demands to be made an Admin yourself even as you berate the same Admins for being unprofessional and "accomodating to the morons". You're just some immature guy pouting at us. You've done nothing worthwhile for the wiki, you're disrupting every user you come into contact with. We don't need you and will all be better for it if you are gone. Permanent Ban. I doubt anyone will leap to your defense after your behavior this past week. You saw to that yourself. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:37, July 6, 2016 (UTC) Dragon, I am not an important editor so I don't know if you will listen to me - I mainly follow. I wanted to ask you to reconsider this course of action. Yes, this guy was rude at times and immature, insulting and maybe even flippant - but, with all due respect we all know how you are at times with other people, to the point where someone started a vote to strip you of admin rights. You are also very strict, brusque and sometimes you do take things a bit far, however you are still here. Like you, from what I see EchoesOfTheTower might have some form of OCD of perfectionism issues, combined with a short temper (I do study psychology), and this might cause him to go overboard at times. You said he was not competent to edit. True, his edits were limited to adding titles and rectifying minor things; in a limited way they do help albeit not greatly. However, the fact that he reached out to you personally on your talk page, asking for your help to improve, apologizing and committing to be a better editor tells me he deserves a chance, and given the way he writes, like his user page, he has good potential -- he writes very well and with just some training he can do well. I agree with you on the "bursting in to be an admin" bit, but that tells me he just wants to help, hold a respectful position within the wiki and mark his presence, and hasn't fully understood how the process works yet. With regards to the user he argued with, it didn't seem to me like he was in the wrong. He pointed out multiple times he was right and offered evidence but the user kept reverting the edits, wasting his time. It surprises me that you do not consider that "incompetent" yet his editing mistakes are all wrong. As a gesture of good will, he apologized to the user and also expressed his wishes to work with him in the future. The fact he called upon an admin to settle the matter demonstrates maturity in allowing someone higher ranking than him to settle matters, instead of risking a full blown argument. He apologized to you, practically begged you to help him, and you drop this on him. That's very harsh Dragon, and in the past you've had far more patience with people, like Ch'vyalthan, who was clearly a troll and all his "mistakes" were on purpose. It took you months to ban him and he basically shut down the wiki. You were far more lenient with him. You also say he's "obsequious". I checked all his messages, and his "obsequiousness" was really him just trying to help and get involved. Destroying him like this was too far. Don't mistake kindness and willingness to help with "servility". He has to make a good impression after all. You said his user page basically said "I WANT TO BE AN ADMIN!". It does to an extent, but it expresses his wishes to be one and his understanding of what he has to do, he doesn't have any demands or demonstrates he feels entitled. He was just hoping. Never have I seen or felt he wanted to "buddy up" and be an admin because "he's a cool guy". Where do you get all this from? I looked at some of his work on the Inbetweeners wiki and I am quite impressed. I watch the Inbetweeners and when I went to the wiki some years back I was shocked at how bad it was, how some infoboxes were incomplete, how proper grammar was lacking and the text full of mistakes. His editing was a major shakeup and he overhauled this into a better place, as the wiki was all but abandoned. Getting involved in arguments and debates is part of life here on the wiki, and sometimes it can get out of hand. We all know. I don't even know this guy, yet somehow I took his case to heart. In conclusion my points are: 1. Yes, he has been rude, insulting and a bit flippant but so are you at times. Many times. In the past you called users "idiots", "morons" "asses" to the point where people wanted you banned. 2. Yes he was incompetent and negligent, but people start off that way and they need to be helped, not punished, especially this severely. 3. His writing, for what I saw seems good and he has great potential. Do not waste such a POTENTIALLY good editor. 4. His outbursts and insults toward you may well be caused by some minor disorder and not by will. It's unfair to ban him for that. You have them too. 5. He wishes to be an admin - that's his choice to say, anyone can hope to be something. 6. You have been more lenient on far worse people who actually did it on purpose, were beyond HARRASSING (LovelyChrys) was allowed to leave harrassing and annoying messages beyond counting pleading to be unbanned, giving futile and weak reasons as to why. 7. The fact he apologized tells me he knows he is not right, and that he has good will and faith. 8. He was never warned verbally or with even a temporary ban. 9. His actions, while certainly not correct, do not warrant a ban, especially a permament one. 9. His work on another wiki, albeit short, was quite good and functionally restarted an abandoned wiki, correcting mistakes and making it look better, adding infoboxes and refining it to perfection. It continues. I ask you, no I PLEAD with you to reconsider this harsh course of action. If you could give him maybe a TEMPORARY ban, and talk to him, work with him, and help him fully understand what he has to do, and his position here it would be better for everyone instead of just giving his harsh treatment. I do hope you will see reason, and I will try to gather support for him. Do please be more lenient. Thank you to all. Sincerely, Mark Schattsneider MikiNorthernStorm98 (talk) 20:02, July 6, 2016 (UTC) I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you, Mark. Echoes left a message on Buffy's talk page calling me immature, which was rich considering his tone when he confronted me about reverting his edits, and asked her outright to get rid of me. And I see he's been bombarding Buffy with all sorts of messages despite everything she's going through. He has been rude, arrogant, and insulting to multiple users. I'm sorry but he had to go. Shaneymike (talk) 20:48, July 6, 2016 (UTC) ::Mark don't you see.. everything you listed above is enough to ban him. Secondly, let me say.. the fact we're having to go thru this at all.... something/someone who keeps us away from our work here and the duty and tasks that need to be done, needs to be banned. We do not have time for this. 21:34, July 6, 2016 (UTC) ::Shaney, I fully stand with him. I understand why he called you that, he must've thought you were messing with him. I would've. Any reasonable person would think that, seeing as you should know the format of an article. I do, and I haven't edited nearly at all. ::Queen, this is APPALLING. His arguments were only created to try and improve the wiki, were never pointless and having a temper is nothing bad. He apologized. I dug up old wiki registers, it is RIDICULOUS that Dragon is still not only here, but an admin after the BRUTALITY he used toward some people, not to mention the language he used toward people who made mistakes. Is this really coherence? The mistakes he made were in good faith, and the lashings alone didn't deserve a permament ban. This is beyond unfair. His mistakes can be rectified and he can be taught to be better. He was basically begging to receive the help to improve and become a productive member of the community and you just brutally rebuffed him. What is it in your mental wiring that give you such harshness and no mercy whatsoever. It's just mean and it wounds me that you don't give a second chance to whoever is trying to help and CLEARLY HAS POTENTIAL while someone who insults, berates and dare I say bullies people has free power. Again, I urge you to reconsider - at least give him a shorter ban. This is just not fair, seeing the leniency you gave people such as Ch'vyalthan. MikiNorthernStorm98 (talk) 21:56, July 6, 2016 (UTC) ::Something seems fishy to me here. Just the fact you'd bring up TDD's past as well as Ch'vyalthan makes me wonder if you are if he is him/her. I am done dealing with this. In stead of making edits you were only concerned about complaining about not having your way and using the word "Appalling" a lot, as does this "mikiNorthernStorm98" does too-- which also deserves to be banned if he isn't offering this wiki nothing more than some debate. Leave me out of this please, TDD has made his decision and that is the end of the story. 22:12, July 6, 2016 (UTC)